DNA testing

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  • #19344
    RiverRavenFarm
    Participant

    @Aster sure… They don’t have the time, database, or technology to specifically sequence everything. As I said they really only scan through for easily visible genetic markers and then cross reference those found in a customer’s DNA against a very shallow statistical set of modern populations. With that approach anything that doesn’t square off statistically can be termed “anomalous.” The cause may be the testing has insufficient data to reference, or that the individual may have statistically unusual elements (from ancient recessive traits mostly lost in the broader population, or very old gene flow from a different source than is statistically common) in their DNA, or that the results are showing a gene flow not otherwise being taken into account by the statistical modelling… the sky’s the limit. It almost certainly isn’t anything nefarious or disingenuous though- basically just a VERY broad range of human errors or limits on how accurate and detailed the test results can be with the resources available to the testing companies.

    #19320
    A_Spartan_Speaks
    Participant

    I had my dna tested a few years back and there were no surprises.

    #19297
    Aster
    Participant

    @RiverRavenFarm thanks for the in-depth posts. Do you have an idea why mass market DNA companies sometimes show anomalous ancestry results like the ones WelshmanNorman mentioned?

    #19295
    RiverRavenFarm
    Participant

    Follow up^^^

    It’s also well worth noting that many general market companies lack the dataset (or the desire) to go into detail explaining what percentages of similarity or dissimilarity can really mean. For example, they may tell you that your DNA is 75% similar to modern Dutch people, so you are 3/4 Dutch by ancestry. Okie doke, that isn’t a LIE, but it’s also misleadingly incomplete.

    What they aren’t explaining is that each person’s DNA consists of BILLIONS of individually unique genetic sequences, which have all been mapped out and identified by scientists at the level of humans as a species, but the precise function and origin of each genetic sequence has not yet been identified. In other words, scientists have been able to sequence out and label all our genetic bits and pieces, but they aren’t yet 100% certain on what each bit and piece of our DNA actually does, or how they relate to each other in their incalculably diverse recombinations generation by generation, or precisely how & why certain genes remain unchanged for thousands of years but others spontaneously mutate or recombine in only a single generation. It’s all a very constantly evolving and improving picture, so drawing superficial conclusions can be misleading.

    It’s also worth pointing out that we should keep in mind that the percentage of our DNA which diverges from one person to another, and from one ethnic population to another, is astronomically small. As in, modern Europeans are all almost genetically identical; they differ by a fraction of a fraction of 1% of their DNA. And that has been the case going back several thousand years to the introduction of the Neolithic/Chalcolithic Yamnaya, Bell Beaker, and Corded Ware populations that migrated into Europe from the Pontic Steppe. We can map their movements because they replaced and assimilated most of the previous populations, and leave a genetic as well as archaeological break from the previous several thousand years of evidence which *appears* to correlate with the arrival of the Indo-European languages. We also know that they remain the primary gene pool from which all subsequent European ethnicities and genetic data spring. But here again, we’re talking about a fraction of a fraction of 1% of an individual person’s DNA that diverges between a potential Bronze Age Proto-Celt in Iberia or the British Isles and a Proto-Slav or Proto-Germanic person from the North European plain. There’s a bigger difference between all of them and the previous populations of “Stone Age Hunter Gatherers” or “Early European Farmers” gradually replaced or assimilated by the newcomers, but even that is ultimately far far smaller than 1% of the entire individual DNA code.

    All of which is to say that the general market companies just don’t have the time, inclination, or information to get THAT specific with their results, and to explain the mathematical and historical details. Who’s going to read that letter in 30 seconds and post the results on social media haha?

    It’s also worth acknowledging for reference that yes, every single human currently alive is technically 98.8% genetically identical to a chimpanzee. Literally. This also helps explain why our ancestors were able to interbreed with hominids of other species, like Neanderthals and Denisovans, with whom we were over 99% genetically identical. The genetic differences between us as modern human beings and ethnic groups is THAT SMALL, and yet nonetheless very real. Again, this stuff just doesn’t make for a fast, superficial result letter to read.

    #19294
    RiverRavenFarm
    Participant

    Is it technically possible to get deeply specific results down to less than 1% of the genome that allow for academic scientists to track and identify the ethnic origins of individuals and, consequently, whole populations across time and space? Yes. The Max Planck Institute, among numerous others, has demonstrated some exceptional work in these fields, and such studies are illuminating historical, linguistic, and archaeological work in ways unimagined even 20 years ago. It is, as @Aster noted, even possible to not only quantify the amount of an individual’s genome which is ultimately from Neanderthal (or Denisovan) origins, from a Paleolithic hominid species separate from (but related to) our own Homo sapiens sapiens, but also to specify the attributes affected in our makeup by that genetic contribution. Neanderthals, for example, appear to have disproportionately contributed to the successful evolution of the immune system in populations across Northern Asia and Europe. So we should maintain a cautiously optimistic, if studiously skeptical, mind towards the technology and results we read about being reported from major European and international research organizations.

    However… the general market DNA ancestry companies? They lack the data, quantity of aDNA (ancient DNA) samples, technology and time to sequence entire genomes for each individual customer and then to analyze that information against a global aDNA database sequencing down to less than 1% results. Instead, they go by generalizations from the last 3-4 generations, and do statistical comparative modeling. Which is to say, if you pay them to identify your DNA they’ll run an extremely shallow sequencing of it which focuses on a handful of easily identifiable markers (like certain haplogroups connected to inheritance through the Y chromosome or the mitochondrial markers inherited through the maternal lines) which can be statistically compared to modern populations. So if your individual test pops up with several markers statistically common in modern German, Scandinavian, or “Northern European” populations from the last 3-4 generations they’ll tell you that, and then they calculate the percentage of your ancestry from that region based off the number of markers they find. It isn’t that it’s not at all accurate, it IS, but rather that it’s a very shallow and incomplete analysis so their results can be inaccurate intentionally or unintentionally.

    By contrast, the really sophisticated scientific studies can sequence and track backwards across thousands of years, and illuminate the way Paleolithic, Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age, Iron Age, and medieval populations moved, mixed, and evolved or died out.

    #19236
    Tradiman
    Participant

    @Aster Personally it would be interesting, but would be concerned about nefarious use.
    I think he said he used service offered through ancestry website.

    #19235
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I do not remember the companies, but there are alot of videos on yourube about it, including on done on the CBC in Canada.

    #19234
    Aster
    Participant

    Do you remember which company it was for the twins example and for the dog example?
    @Tradiman Which genotyping or ancestry service did your son use?

    It’s a confusing field for me, so I just stopped paying attention, even though I was interested years ago and could be interested again. 23andme was changing their ancestry algorithm over the years, and it was also trying to deduce which generations acquired the ethnic admixtures, which seemed off to me. Who do ya trust?

    #19230
    Tradiman
    Participant

    @WelshmanNorman I agree. Risky affair, and they can lie.
    And I do understand they are working on targeted bio weapons, and why was upset he did so.
    In regards to his I believe he got an accurate one as it matches with verbal family history, which I had never told him cause he never asked, and what it showed for his was pretty accurate.

    @Aster

    Germanic, English, Scottish etc.
    The proof for me was 1% far east Europe/Russia, as my grandmother was told by her grandmother.

    #19228
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @ aster, I have heard of some people at some of these companies adding false data to show white people with small amounts of non-white admixture. I have seen identical twins get radically different results from the same company. I even saw a guy dna test a dog (he actually substituted his own human DNA) apparently he was a mutt with bull dog and collie or some nonsense. Honestly I think its a scam at best and a way to collect dna for ethnic targeting weapons. China is subsidizing these DNA kits so they are cheaper than the cost. They are building. Genetic database so they can make disease that affects whites but not Chinese etc. Also they are trying to make genetically manipulated Chinese with higher IQ and strength. It sounds like science fiction but it’s not as hard as someone might think.

    #19227
    Aster
    Participant

    It would be interesting to learn your Y haplogroup. And what percentage of Neanderthal if you’re able to find out. But I still wonder how accurate their ancestry algorithms are, for the minute percentages under 1%, and what biases companies have in their analysis. It’s also not full genome sequencing, more like a representative sample.

    #19226
    Ted
    Participant

    That’s upsetting but not wholly unexpected that the military would do that. They also inject you with a bunch of stuff with severe penalties for noncompliance, an anthrax vaccine famously caused gulf war syndrome. It really is a job that requires you to suspend your human rights.

    I knew a White person that was quite proud of their perceived tiny fraction of Native American blood. They thought they had sharper senses and were more in tune with nature because of it. They also later discovered they were really 100% White.

    #19223
    Tradiman
    Participant

    Or use it for targeted genetic viral pathogens.
    I was rather shocked he did A DNA, but his reasoning was being in the military they took it anyway.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by Tradiman.
    #19221
    Tradiman
    Participant

    @Ted I agree with you.
    Aside from the fact he “gave up” his DNA it has been illuminating, refreshing, to know we are 100% European stock.
    At least know the one relative wasn’t Native American.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by Tradiman. Reason: Reply
    #19220
    Ted
    Participant

    I staunchly refuse DNA testing. Criminals get caught when their DNA ends up being similar to a relative who submitted theirs. I’m not a fan of criminals, but the government I live under and it’s law enforcement is increasingly hostile towards White people. DNA may also be the basis for a future digital ID.

    The dangers of these future possibilities outweighs the benefit of learning one’s specific ratios of White sub-groups.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by Ted.
    #19206
    Tradiman
    Participant

    Has anyone done one?
    One of my kids recently told me he did.
    wish he hadn’t given them his “code” but it is kinda comforting to know according to the results we are Full European.

    Knew I was half German, briton area, but seems all his mothers as well hailed from the same region of Europe.

    Searching genealogy there was one ancestor couldn’t find information on.
    Supposedly was part Native American. Seems They were wrong.

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